MP Message Board
MP Message Board
Home | Profile | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
 All Forums
 Message Board
 MavPuck.com Other Sports Forum
 Dear "Save Rosenblatt" People
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 107

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  09:41:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah. That is a problem. Right now, the areas around both ballparks aren't developing as quickly as anticipated. Pennant Place hasn't moved at all (although that could change given it appears that they are grading for the planned housing development to the North), and the area around TD has added a few stores and restaurants that often don't even open when there is no game going on. One could wonder whether or not some more well utilized developments would have happened organically even without the ballpark given the Slowdown and Century Link Center in the area. I'd say neither ballpark has been a slam dunk for development.

I noticed the grading happening near Werner the last time we were there. This article says there are homes in the half million price range going in there. Wonder how big the market is for that.

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Werner-Park-Neighborhood-Development-202593041.html

In any event, it appears the residential aspect is starting to come to fruition in Sarpy. As people like the guys on Grow Omaha have said, Pennant Place won't develop until there is 24/7 residential traffic in that area, and that's now happening. My guess is the ballpark helped to speed up the process for getting residential out there, which will ultimately speed up the process for getting retail near Werner Park. Would residential and lake have happened on its own in that area without the ballpark? I'm not so sure about that.

Developments around the TD certainly jumped out more quickly, but have kind of stagnated and some of the things down there haven't panned out to the level anticipated. Development around Werner Park hasn't moved at all until recently, but I like the prognosis for the future. In time, there will be more people living near Werner Park than TD (as I've been told many of the condos near TD have been bought by the 1%r's to use as hotels around CWS time and sit empty the other 360 days of the year). I believe Pennant Place will end up being a pretty darn good destination for Sarpy County. It was wise not to rush anything given the economy.

You're certainly not going to see much of an increase in foot traffic near TD Ameritrade Park anytime soon. The CWS appears to be it for the forseeable future. As Roger Dixon himself said in the article Greg linked, "The Storm Chasers do a pretty good job," and no indy ball teams are knocking down MECA's door to play at McStadium. I do think that pro soccer is an option for Omaha one day, but I'm not sure a MLS team would consider TD suitable. That could possibly be Omaha's best bet though. Not alot of good answers for increasing foot traffic around McStadium before and after the CWS. CU baseball is pretty much a dead end. We know that now. Music festivals and bush league football are also dead ends.

At the end of the day, Omaha and MECA made it clear they didn't need minor league baseball. So, they have what they have downtown. It's great for the CWS. I think everyone agrees on that. So, it was a worthwhile investment. It's just kind of useless the other 360 days out of the year. It serves its purpose though and that's all that matters, and I'm still glad I don't have to watch minor league baseball there.
Go to Top of Page

Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  10:01:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I also noticed they have started construction on the dam site out there. They are doing a nice job with bringing in higher end development out there with Pennant Place.

A co-worker's wife works for Good Samaritan that is getting ready to break ground at Pennant Place. They are not only going to build their facility there but also will have office worker's as well.

Greg
Go to Top of Page

West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  12:59:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nousefouraname

Yeah. That is a problem. Right now, the areas around both ballparks aren't developing as quickly as anticipated. Pennant Place hasn't moved at all.


Compared to BFE, north downtown has literally exploded with development.

From a development perspective, two stadiums are turning out to be less than one.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
Go to Top of Page

Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  1:03:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Up until now, that's true. For the next 5 year's, my money is one Werner Park, Pennant Place and the area's around it.

More dates being filled at Werner, this is another event that will fit better than at TD:

http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130618&content_id=50986082&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_t541&sid=t541
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  1:17:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree Greg. The possibilities are still endless at Werner Park. In the end, it doesn't matter if it takes longer than expected, only that they get it right. Would lakes, half million dollar homes, shopping, and dining have gone in out there without the ballpark? Possibly, but I doubt it. The same type of development could just have easily shifted to Douglas County out West. So, this could ultimately still be a really important positive for Sarpy County. Earth is moving behind Werner Park right now. This is the next step.

Without more event days, how much more development is likely to happen downtown because of McStadium? I wouldn't bet on much. I'd even say the market for bars and restaurants needed because of the CWS alone is about at a max. I mean, how much development organically spawned in 50 years near Rosenblatt because of the CWS alone? Nearly none.
Go to Top of Page

West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  3:58:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That lake was being planned long before the Trailer Park was even being considered. The process began in 2001, and the report became final in 2009.

And it's not being built for a ballpark... It's being built for flood protection...

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
Go to Top of Page

Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  4:11:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The lake had nothing to do with the ballpark, correct. I don't think I ever said that one brought the other, nor did I mean to imply it. It's just another piece of the puzzle that will make that area great for higher end development. It's also why my money is one that area for the next few years in terms of development vs NoDo for the next 3-5 years.

Greg
Go to Top of Page

Pants
Junior Mav

596 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  12:21:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think they wanted it to be an anchor space, but development in that area started back with CLC, before talks of moving the ballpark downtown were official or even happening. Slowdown and other developments went in before plans for a new place were finalzed, back when Rosenblatt was still being talked about as upgradable. This process is slow downtown, but it's important to note that it has come a long way fairly fast. Not to mention, each year, things get better around the CWS, beer gardens, tents, etc, seem to be finding their groove. Though it will take time, these things always do.
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  06:48:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Watching the game last night, it seems like the announcers were all but demanding changes to the field dimensions at TD Ameritrade Park. I've seen lots of negative comments from national writers as well. Then Shatel chimed in today.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20130619/CWS/706199824/1001#shatel-shorter-dimensions-could-bring-balance-to-td-ameritrade-park

Obviously, something needs to be done. I like a good pitchers duel as much as anything, but we can safely say mistakes have been made with the configuration of the ballpark. I mean, there's nothing worse than watching guys absolutely crush balls that would be 10 rows deep in any ballpark in America land 10 feet shy of the warning track at the CWS. It makes me feel like I'm watching a kids T-ball game vs. the College World Series.

I wonder what kind of configuration changes they can make down there, but something has to be done soon. It's funny when you think about it. The AAA, one step away from the majors Omaha Storm Chasers, play on a smaller field than the CWS. Something is wrong there.
Go to Top of Page

Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  08:24:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If they bring in the walls, and their seems to be momentum for that, I hope they can make it look like it was built that way. Where others have moved in the walls it does not look as good as before.

The other deal that is coming to light is the foul ball areas. There's a lot more outs being recorded due to the huge amount of space between the playing field and the stands. I think that's an issue as well because the fans are also further from the action.

Greg
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  08:37:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Greg S

If they bring in the walls, and their seems to be momentum for that, I hope they can make it look like it was built that way. Where others have moved in the walls it does not look as good as before.

The other deal that is coming to light is the foul ball areas. There's a lot more outs being recorded due to the huge amount of space between the playing field and the stands. I think that's an issue as well because the fans are also further from the action.

Greg



Not sure how they can make it natural. It's not like the old days at Rosenblatt where you can simply rebuild the bleachers and move them forward or backwards as you like because they were seperate stuctures. The bleachers and wall at TD are a permanent part of the building. Not saying it can't be done, but it'll take some money. You'd think they have some sort of contingency plan for that in the design.

It's hard for me to picture though. I mean, when you move the walls in, you have to build more rows of seats to fill the gap. That could cause you to have to lower the walls, because the seating right now is right up to that level. Not really sure that's an option either.

I suppose, they could reconfigure it the way CITI field did to an extent. It would put the fans in the bleachers further away from the action, but you might have to fill in the current bullpens with rows of seats, then bring the walls in, and have the bullpens right behind the wall between the stands and the field. That would solve some of the problem down the lines at least.
Go to Top of Page

West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  12:21:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know that you have to change the height of the walls much to add additional seating... in fact, I suspect that this was designed to be an option. The first row of the bleachers has the seating starting at the top of the wall, with feet at the level of the top of the wall.

In year one, if you remember, there was a controversy because a ball hit the railing in the bleachers and bounced back into play.

Move the fences in 10 feet...maybe a little more in center field, where there is the hitting background. Add 2-3 rows of seating, with the first row sitting about 2 feet below the wall, looking out over the wall.

I don't know if the bullpens can be moved, though. You might just expand them slightly.

I understand why TD Ameritrade Park was built the way it was; it was a nod to the outrage about destroying the tradition of Rosenblatt. So they recreated the field with the exact same dimensions of the 'Blatt.

I wonder if someone thought to take a fungo machine out to the then-Qwest Center parking lot back in 2008, and compared the carry of fly balls between downtown and Rosenblatt.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  2:45:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are better and more architecturally interesting ways they could have honored Rosenblatt outside of replicating the exact field dimensions. I've thought about that alot lately. I think people would have warmer feelings about TD ameritrade park if it tried to replicate even something about the architecture of Rosenblatt. Maybe the triangular shape and the style of the roof of the old pressbox could have been brought over in some way. That way it would have been a sense of blending old and new vs. what many perceive as "generic corporate ballpark," or "McStadium" as you might say.

I consider it a missed opportunity myself. Most MLB cities that have built new ballparks have tried, in one way or another, to honor the architectural tradition of their past ballparks in their new one. Yankee Stadium re-created the upper deck facade from old Yankee Stadium. Busch Stadium kept the red seats and the general feel of the batters eye and bullpens. Cincinnati built their light standards to replicate what was at Crosley Field.

I don't see replicating the exact dimensions of a playing field as honoring the old ballpark. If anything, I think it was probably a bit of laziness. Like you alluded to, no one probably even studied the impact of the wind flow at the new ballpark. They probably just said, "ahhhh, just keep the field the way it was at Rosenblatt."

There are many ways they could have honored Rosenblatt in the design of TD. We really got nothing outside of hauling over the statue and a few signs in the concourse. In the absence of creating something truly new and interesting of its own in TD (even if Werner was done on the cheap to an extent, it is an interesting design), they should have honored the blatt more. I consider the design of the ballpark to be a missed opportunity on many, many levels. Instead, we got McStadium. It is what it is, I guess.
Go to Top of Page

KCMavsDad
Freshman Mav

225 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  2:55:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Last night there was a wind blowing in from center/right center field. In Rosenblatt that wind would have been blowing out to left field. They "HAD" to orient the new field layout so it would present a "NICE" view of downtown Omaha. Wonderful plan...

"Drop the puck Morrison"
Go to Top of Page

buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  02:37:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well yeah who wouldn't orient the park to give a good view. Wouldn't be a problem if they had done what WestO said. I wonder when the new deadened bats were implemented versus when the park was planned. Just wondering if the park was planned before the new bats came out. There were a few too many homeruns at Rosenblatt and a few too few at TD. The old bats and the new park would have been a good combo.

The park dimensions are one thing. When I watched the news the other night they talked about the idea of using the baseball used in the minors. I forget what coach they said was really pushing for this. Apparently the seams on the college ball sit up higher than the ball used in the minors. The core of the ball used in the minors is also harder. Article below says switch to deadened bats occurred in 2011. So maybe when the park was planned, there wasn't an indication given that there would be a change.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/college-baseball-coaches-urge-livelier-ball
Go to Top of Page

Pants
Junior Mav

596 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  08:20:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also, two days ago the wind was blowing out and there were no homeruns hit, just saying.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/21706/why-home-runs-are-way-down-at-cws

Homeruns have been down all across college baseball since the bat change, not just TD Park. Also, there were 9 HR's last year, there have been 2 this year. The difference? Look at the teams ERA coming into this, we had the best pitching teams in the country. Can we stop blaming a baseball field now? and just deal with what's there?
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2013 :  10:56:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
9 still isn't a huge number when you're talking about 15 games. I still think it's an issue. I mean, there have been guys absolutely crushing balls that are getting caught shy of the warning track. Shots that would have cleared the fences in 99% of ballparks. It's a combination of things certainly, but TD is part of the issue...not the whole issue, but part of it.
Go to Top of Page

Pants
Junior Mav

596 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2013 :  1:32:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's true it's a big park, but as this article stated in 2011, before a single game was even played in TD Park, homeruns were down across all college baseball with the new bats.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=6305746

In fact, they weren't just down 5-10%, they were down almost 40%. That's huge.

My only thing is that the park is already built, they are stuck with it, what else can you do? I guess they are moving towards different balls now?
Go to Top of Page

CaseyMav
#10

Botswana
2337 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2013 :  3:55:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wouldn't it be easiest to just undo or tweak the bat changes?

---
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2013 :  4:35:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The runs scored per game has gone down at every CWS since they opened TD and quite a bit less than the last year at Rosenblatt. So, I'm inclined to say the park has contributed. We'll see. I suppose you can start with the ball and see if that solves it, but you may have to look at moving the fences in. I mean, Werner Park is 310 down the LF line. Makes little sense to me to have college kids having to hit the ball that much further.
Go to Top of Page

Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2013 :  1:00:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pants

Also, two days ago the wind was blowing out and there were no homeruns hit, just saying.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/21706/why-home-runs-are-way-down-at-cws

Homeruns have been down all across college baseball since the bat change, not just TD Park. Also, there were 9 HR's last year, there have been 2 this year. The difference? Look at the teams ERA coming into this, we had the best pitching teams in the country. Can we stop blaming a baseball field now? and just deal with what's there?



I thought you might be on to something on the hitter's facing better pitching until I saw in the paper today, that teams used to hit a higher home run rate at the CWS than during the regular season.

Great article:

http://www.omaha.com/article/20130622/CWS/706229867/1685#cws-where-have-all-the-home-runs-gone

Greg
Go to Top of Page

buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  01:22:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@Casey - I think the bats were changed for pitcher safety so don't think that's something they're going to change or undo, especially in light of what has happened in the majors this year with two dudes getting their twizzlers kicked it.

@Pants - Good point about the ERA, the pitching was phenomenal. Especially UCLA, gave up 4 runs in 5 games. But you can't say the park isn't part of the issue. I would expect HR's should be down in every park, the bats were changed everywhere, not just during the CWS. So I would think all parks/universities could be having the same discussion about changing the fences in order to maintain an offensive aspect of baseball. I also remember from the newscast I referred to that they can't change the baseball till 2015.

If nouse, the self-proclaimed lover of a good 2-1 game is saying that there should be more homers, then you know something's off.
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  06:39:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like a good 2-1 game, but I also like to know that in said 2-1 game that if a guy comes up with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th that we could be one pitch away from a tie game. You don't get that at TD Ameritrade Park. It certainly takes some of the drama out of the game. Teams can just sit back, play a no doubles defense, pitch up in the zone knowing you likely aren't going to hit it out of the park, and force you to hope for multiple singles to tie the game.
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  06:53:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I also thought this was interesting. It tells a little bit different story than the one we typically hear of, "TD Ameritrade Park doesn't need anything but the CWS. The ballpark will pay for itself on the cash brought in by the CWS alone. Anything else you put in there is gravy."

Now, I get that this doesn't factor any of the other money that the CWS brings into Omaha. From hotel nights, to restaurants, to shopping dollars, the CWS is worth it. Period.

Just interesting to me to see that with the CWS along with, Nighthawks, CU baseball, and Red Sky TD Ameritrade Park actually lost money each of its first two years. To me, this tells the story that the CWS alone isn't really enough to make a profit on the ballpark. The article even says it needs a steady stream of cash from other events and attributes the Battles on Ice being one of the single biggest food and beverage days in the ballparks history as a reason why the park might turn its first profit. Very interesting. I think this likely comes as a surprise to alot of people.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20130626/NEWS/706269835/1685#bigger-crowds-at-2013-cws-could-push-td-ameritrade-park-into-the-black
Go to Top of Page

Pants
Junior Mav

596 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  2:10:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's the extra events (CU Baseball, etc) that is actually hurting the park right now, because the operating expesnes are more than being brought in at those events. As noted in the article, "The park was built for the CWS, and it's the series that covers the park's expenses. Making a profit, however, requires a successful stream of cash from other events."

The UFL could have been successfull here had that league not been run by idiots. Hopefully the Big 10 tourny goes over well. I know there has been a lot of speculation on potential success or demise of that.
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  4:27:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If MECA is operating at a loss because of CU baseball, that's a MECA issue then. If what your saying is true and the CWS alone would put the ballpark in the black, but CU baseball drags it back into the red, better raise the rent for CU baseball. That just seems completely obvious.

I wouldn't say it's good stewardship of resources to essentially have the facility operating at a loss because you want to accomodate a private schools' baseball team. I don't care how much money CU basketball brings in on the arena side (it's not like they have any leverage to move anywhere else anyway).

IMO, and again this is assuming this is true, there should never be a scenario where a private entity like Creighton athletics costs the city hundreds of thousands in revenue that could, theoretically, be put into the laps of the taxpayers of Omaha to pay. If CU wants to play there, it should, first and foremost, make financial sense to the city.

We all know MECA has never cut UNO too many freebies in terms of facility charges. Sounds like maybe MECA didn't negotiate themselves a very favorable contract this time. I get the notion that you want the facility to be used and you want as many event days as possible, but I don't agree with giving it away to CU at a loss, but that's just me. Seems like CU gets alot of things handed to them for such an elite private school.
Go to Top of Page

Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  4:48:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Random thoughts McStadium:

Before they move the fences in (which from what the OWH reported won't be anytime soon due to cost), I'd push baseball more to go to the pro style baseball with the flatter laces.

I'd still rather have this style than the gorilla style we had in the 90's. Those 18-14 games with LSU and USC were brutal.

Even if CU games are operating at a loss, I don't view it as CU having things handed to them. If I remember they are paying 10k per game and as far as I know most if not all concession and parking is going to MECA as well.

One thing we've learned is that area needs more than the CWS to get much help from the stadium. There needs to be more activity in that area to help those investing down there. They make a killing for 2 weeks but that's it. At least CU is giving it a shot. As Roger said, it's not an arena, plus at it's size, it's not going to be as cost effective for all of the smaller baseball events as Werner Park. He's all but admitted they don't have a lot of hope for an Indy team. CU is really the only option left.

Greg
Go to Top of Page

nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  5:40:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's debateable how much CU is helping the area though. As you said earlier, Greg, half the time you go down there and Zesto's and Lids aren't even open during CU games, let alone the nights when there's nothing going on down there.

I've also been told, that the CWS has actually hurt development down there in some ways. The Slowdown development, and the other condo's that are right by the ballpark were built with the intention of getting 24/7 foot traffic down there to truly spur development. From what I've been told, many of the condo's have been purchased by the 1% to use as their personal CWS luxury suites, but sit empty the rest of the year.

It is a fine line. Yes, you want dates down there, but you want to feel like anything you put down there is revenue neutral at worst.

Of course, we don't have all the specifics about this. I get the feeling that a huge chunk of that million dollar loss in 2011 can probably be directly attributed to the bungling failure of legendary proportions that was Dead Sky. I think we all know that MECA outkicked its coverage on that huge bloated festival in 2011. I also bet that the scaled down version in 2012 still lost money and may explain how they went from losing nearly a million dollars to under $150k in the span of a year. For all I know, CU could be close to revenue neutral and the fact that there's no Dead Sky makes much of the difference. If that's the case, there's no issue with CU.

You'd think the OWH would have dug a little deeper on this. They pretty much left people to believe that the ballpark lost big money in 2011 and some money in 2012, but really only attributed the chance of ending up in the red in 2013 to more people going to the CWS and one good night (that should have been much better) at Battles On Ice. Too bad that article failed to address how much money the ballpark made/lost with the CWS alone, and how much each of the remaining individual events added/cost the bottom line. Maybe MECA won't provide that information, but the context of the article makes it seem like they didn't really look into it and basically framed it in a way where one could be led to believe the CWS in and of itself doesn't put them in the black.
Go to Top of Page

Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2013 :  08:45:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If CU's not there, really no one is other than the CWS. I agree not a big impact down there but at least it provides some foot traffic. The Clink has been a much bigger driver for the development but you've still got to try with McStadium. It just won't be what was initially envisioned for the area.

Greg
Go to Top of Page

buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2013 :  11:30:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gonna agree with nouse, some good posts. Do you trade "some foot traffic" for being in the red?
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 107 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
MP Message Board © 2000-2017 MavPuck.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000