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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  10:23:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by West O Mike

How have I been changing my story again? This is what I posted two years ago on this topic.

Yes, I have been opposed to a second stadium, because the only proposals have been for government to pay for most of it.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com



Here's a direct quote from you from just about 2 months ago...

quote:
I still would have been against a second city-owned stadium even if it was downtown. I just don't see a need for two ballparks in the Omaha area. From my perspective, I'm glad the city isn't paying for two...but I think the metro area would be better off if there were only one.


Then, when I confronted you on the hypocrisy of being against 2 baseball stadiums in one metro area, but supporting a 4th arena in one metro area, you moved the goalposts and said that you were only against the second ballpark because Sarpy County is paying for it and that you are for a 4th arena in the metro area for the mavericks because they are paying for it themselves.

Of course, we know they won't be entirely paying for it themselves. They will undoubtedly expect the city of Omaha to kick in large sums of money for infrastructure upgrades, road work, etc. to get the site ready for the arena. As I mentioned previously, the arena will also take money away from the Qwest Center by removing a tenant from the building. Those are profits that the city will certainly miss. The name of the game should be paying the Qwest Center debt down as quickly as possible, right? I don't see how losing 20+ dates of 6-8k attendance is going to be seen as a positive in that regard.

You're entitled to your opinion and I suppose it's fine if you want to have two seperate sets of standards for two different sports/teams, but at least admit you're being inconsistent.
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West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2010 :  10:31:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let me make this clear.

I think two baseball stadiums in the metro area is a bad idea. That being said, if the Royals want to pay for it themselves, that's their right. This is America. It's just like even though I think you're an idiot doesn't mean that you shouldn't have the opportunity to prove it time and time again.

As for four arenas...well, that seems a little inconsistent until you look at the details. UNO is going to need a campus facility for all of their indoor sports eventually. Sapp is outdated, and UNO is going to be division 1 before too long.

The Civic is functionally obsolete, and is already targeted for redevelopment.

The MAC was a mistake ...and it's in Council Bluffs. Too far from campus and you can't have a "Nebraska" state university playing in Iowa.

Besides any arena for UNO hockey needs to have practice ice adjacent. I don't see anyway you can do that at the Civic...or the Qwest. Council Bluffs? Maybe...but again, that's too far from campus in another state. That's not a good option either.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  07:17:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do like how you ignore all of my points about the problems UNO has had over the years with MECA and how the Royals would share those problems. The consensus on this board has been from the start that UNO was a bad fit for the Qwest Center and with MECA. How would any of that be any different for the Royals? It wouldn't.

People on this board have argued for years that the Qwest has too many seats for UNO. Same thing with the Royals at TD Ameritrade.

People on this board have cried about the mismanagment and supposed buffoonery of MECA, yet some argue that the Royals should have willingly subjected themselves to the same conditions.

It's been said that it's a disadvantage not having control of concessions at the qwest center and less than total control of arena advertising and signage. That's what the Royals would have signed up for with meca as well.

I'll believe your red herring of an argument about UNO needing a new facility for all of their other sports when any of their other sports starts drawing more than 500 people per game. Until then, it just comes off as a deflection. I've said it before and say it again, the UNO sport most in need of its own facility is not hockey or basketball, it's baseball.

The civic may be targeted for redevelopment, but it's still going to cost the city money they don't have to tear it down. It makes more sense right not to keep it operating and if the UNO arena ever did take, let's say, the lancers away, that would be more money lost by the city.

Your statement about practice ice makes some sense, but if you haven't noticed every master plan of every large development in the city lately includes an ice rink. If even half of those come to fruition, there will be plenty of ice to choose from. Not really a slam dunk argument for a new arena.

I also love how you talk about the MAC saying, "it's in council bluffs", as if to say that because it's not in Omaha, it doesn't count. Well, the sarpy stadium is in sarpy county. It's not in omaha either. Sarpy had to do what's best for Sarpy and they did. It has just as much of an obligation to Omaha as Council Bluffs does.
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buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  08:55:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually, what he said was that the MAC is in another STATE, not just that it's not in Omaha. So you can really only count it as a viable arena if UNO were to actually considering playing in it. If they did, I wouldn't have season tickets. But they won't consider that, so I'm not worried and I don't think you can count it.

I also don't think you can use infrastructure costs as part of the cost when considering a UNO arena. I see what you're saying but infrastructure costs come along with any project. I'm not in this business so anybody can correct me if I'm wrong but with any project, wouldn't the city be responsible for those infrastructure costs? If a city is always responsible for that, then you can't use that against UNO. You could, but then you also have to say that the Sarpy ballpark is costing even more than it should for Sarpy taxpayers because they will also be responsible for those costs.

It would be crappy for the city to lose that money received from the Lancers and Mavs as tenants but the fact that they are considering leaving could maybe tell the city that they aren't running things properly. I only say that with the idea that our lease is crappy enough that by UNO could save money in the end building their own park. Like renting an apartment versus owning a home. That may only be one side of it, as the other side would be the fact that maybe the Mavs just don't fit in the Qwest.

It was a twizzlersty position for the Royals. We all know that. We all understand why they didn't want to be downtown. It did look kind of dumb to see them with 5k people in a 25k stadium. And I don't blame them for not wanting their fans to not have to pay $6 for parking. Never heard $12 so don't know where that came from, although I could certainly imagine it being there shortly. But it's like when you were a kid, unless you had rich parents, if you wanted something they'd say go get a job and pay for what you want. The Royals didn't like the option they had, so it's like they went and got new rich parents that would pay for what they wanted. UNO is not doing this. Trev is saying they are trying to raise the money to pay for it themselves. And the Royals did in some way hold the gun to somebody's head and got Sarpy to pay up by taking the time to investigate Sugar Land or whatever it was in Texas.

Do we need another arena? I dunno. I would love to have UNO is their own building. But do we need it? I dunno. Maybe not. WestO's arguments for all those other sports to some degree is true. I didn't grow up here and have never been to any other UNO athletic activity than hockey but my impression of the current buildings is that they couldn't go D1 with those current facilities. You are correct though nouse that baseball is probably the most dire situation. When I first heard they have to play at Boys Town, that's kind of sad.

In the end, it's all about who's paying for it. The Royals got taxpayers. UNO's (hopefully) not doing that. Man, I wanted to stay out of this conversation too.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  09:04:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
really good post buetane.

as I've said before, I'm not against a UNO arena. I do think they need one. I just see alot of similarities between UNO's situation and the Royals.

Yes, I applaud UNO for trying to pay for a new arena themselves. Of course, part of that is because they know they'd never get a publicly funded arena from Omaha, but that's another story. My whole point on that was it's not totally a private thing no matter what and with Omaha in such dire straits, should they be spending money on stuff like infrastructure for a uno arena? I don't know. Should we be exicted about UNO possibly taking money away from the city that would help pay off the qwest center? i don't know either. I'm just pointing out that a UNO arena is not budget neutral for the city of omaha by any means.

I also agree that things could have been handled better by all involved to try to get the royals downtown, but it was handled poorly. you cant change the past and I just can't blame the royals for going out and getting the best possible deals for themselves.

How many other minor league teams pay for their own ballparks? Probably not many and that includes the ones that are charging more money for parking than the royals, i bet.

also, buetane, you say you've never been to another uno sporting event outside of hockey. I've been to plenty of basketball, wrestling, and volleyball events when i was a student there. they don't draw anything. So, I stand by my statement that it's a red herring to really say that this is about those sports in any way.

btw, this may sound like an out there idea, but I think Sarpy should cut UNO a deal and the Mavs should be playing at the Sarpy ballpark. It's a long way from campus, but its not much further than some of the places they've played at in the past like seymour smith and boys town. Would be nice for the program.

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admin
U!N!O!

10827 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  09:33:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey guys...

Let's keep some of the personal stuff out of the posts.

For example, it is completely unnecessary to attack someone else's blog.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  09:51:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wth, admin?

So, you let WestOMike call me an "idiot" in his post above and don't edit that out, but you edit my post becuase I made fun of his blog and called him pathetic? If he wants to be childish and resort to namecalling, I can play that game.

Explain please. Also, please edit his post as well.

It's funny that he's free to call me an idiot, but calling out someones blog is over the line.

Either way, West-O-Mike has shown his true colors. When he starts losing an argument, he resorts to name calling. I have no respect for him. I didn't start that game, but if you want to play name calling, I'll play it.
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Bigredmed
Senior Mav

1574 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  10:01:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Calling UNO into the debate over the Royals is not a fair argument. Basically UNO needs a place for its teams to practice (particularly hockey and women's softball) that don't involve driving halfway across town and back.

These are athletes, but also students. Given the tendency for upper division classes to be offered once a year and the need to stay on a relatively normal track in the lower divisions to stay on track for graduation, we need to have a facility for these kids to train, but also one that is close enough to class that they can go to practice and still make that class required for their major that is only taught one semester a year at 10 am on MWF.

The Royals are pros. They don't have classes to go to. They can play were the deal is best. UNO could play and practice exclusively in the Qwest, but that would be a hardship on the team re classes and it would require MECA to give UNO a standing practice time and ice priority. It would mean that they would be able to access it 7 days a week during season and during preseason practice. MECA has already demonstrated that they would not do that. Given that Creighton would also want to practice at the Qwest, it would be very near impossible to have a rink and a basketball court in the same space with the take down and erection issues needed to switch from one to the other.

Qwest is a nice place. I like my seats and parking. I like the feel of the place. It is not a long term solution. Coaches told us at last year's Brewburger Frozen Four event that moving out of the Qwest would give a $2M bump to the AD balance sheet. Suddenly Hockey is a revenue sport again.

An arena and training facility on campus also allows for expansion of kinesiology and sports medicine programs at UNO and UNMC.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  10:11:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yes, in many ways comparing UNO to the Royals is apples and oranges. I get that. There are alot of things that UNO goes through that the Royals won't.

Still, as I've pointed out above, there are alot of similarities between the two especially when it comes to dealing with MECA.

All the legitimate problems you pointed out that the student athletes endure at UNO can also be compared with the hardship that the Royals have endured for 40 years as a business with having to relocate its operations and give up play for two prime weeks during the middle of the season.

It's apples and oranges in many ways, but it's also easy to make comparisons that show how TD Ameritrade is not a permanent solution for the Royals just like the Qwest isn't a permanent solution for the Royals.

That has been my only point from the beginning in comparing UNO to the Royals in this exercise.

We can all agree that as a business the royals got a better deal in Sarpy and that's what we hope will happen for the Mavericks in their own facility soon as well.

We just need to recognize what these teams are doing for what it is and that's securing their future in the best way possible and I'm still strongly convinced that the royals are better off in Sarpy county despite what some would like you to believe.
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buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  2:08:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't even think WestO would disagree that the Royals are better off in Sarpy. But he's arguing more about the city's position and taxpayers. I think anyway, but I'll leave that up to him.

Nouse, I wasn't really trying to speak about those other UNO sports and say that this debate was really about those sports. I was just referencing WestO's point about those sports. I like that idea of UNO playing in Sarpy. I don't know how the UNO players would like it. Couldn't imagine they wouldn't but maybe the Royals don't like that idea. Scheduling could be tough too.

I could always see your general argument nouse in the comparison of the Royals and Mavs and the Royals certainly got a good deal down there. But perhaps my and maybe WestO's was that Stein got Sarpy county residents to buy him a house, while UNO is trying to build their own. $2M is hefty and maybe in a way that's money that we use on a yearly basis to pay off our own arena or ballpark or fieldhouse or what have you, or at least use it to supplement what the AD's office is able to generate.
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MetroFan
Freshman Mav

212 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  2:59:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As an FYI, Sarpy is building the ballpark, but the ORoyals are putting in $2.35 in up-front capital, a minimum of $450k per year, operating the ballpark at their expense on a daily basis and are outfitting all concessions and ballpark equipment to the tune of $4MM. It is a partnership between the County and ORoyals. Yes it is a deal for both.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  3:10:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
buetane:

I know that one of the stated goals of the sarpy ballpark is to bring other baseball events to the ballpark outside of the Royals. We know that UNO has a near homeless baseball team.

Now, I have severe doubts about how many people would turn out and if such a venture would make any money at all, but it could possibly do alright if ticket prices were low enough especially once UNO does go D1.

I think this is probably a pipe dream on my part. I just don't see it being profitable, but I don't know the details of what it would take to make it work. Seems like an opportunity to me if nothing else. Heck, they seem to think they can make legion ball work out there. If that's the case, maybe UNO would be a good fit.

I also think that Sarpy should be targeting the Big 10 baseball tournament. don't know what kind of relationship they have with NU or if NU would prefer their bid to be for TD Ameritrade or Haymarket, but it's another opportunity to talk about as well.

Overall, I agree with Metrofan that this will likely end up being a good deal for both. If it turns out bad, the Sarpy board should be held accountable. I would hope they did their homework. Stein didn't force them to do anything. They thought it was in the county's best interest and I'll take that at face value for now.

I guess I just don't see the hatred by a small contingent including the OWH and random people around omaha to be constructive in any way. It's all just speculation at this point. I'm not an expert either, but we will have our answers in a few short years.
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buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  8:54:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you're saying that to me nouse, I don't really think Stein forced them to do anything. However, had they (whoever "they" is) not done something, the Royals wouldn't be here anymore. That could bode well for UNO that one of Sarpy's goals is to get other baseball events. Assuming UNO even would want to go down there.

Thanks for those numbers Metro.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  9:51:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
no buetane. I'm not saying that to you. not at all. I'm just saying that there are alot of people that haven't wanted to even keep an open mind to the project at all. I'm not lumping you in with that. I've enjoyed our conversation about the ballpark situation.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2010 :  10:14:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BTW, I got a sneak peak tour of TD Ameritrade Park. Just thought I'd share it with whoever might be interested. It's made me more excited for next season and nowhere near as sad to see Rosenblatt go...

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d98/mtorson/TD%20Ameritrade%20Park/?albumview=slideshow



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buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2010 :  07:34:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know how much I like the upper and lower decks. Makes it feel too big league. Was more of a classic feel at Rosenblatt, more college. But I suppose that's why they got rid of it. Gotta get new.
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Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2010 :  11:26:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The future of the Civic has not been decided. I know the future plan showed it as a POSSIBLE location for a tower in the future but that plan will change many, many times over the next 10 years. As of right now, no one has any plans to redevelop on the Civic site. Don't forget the study the city paid for a few years ago (which many predicted would so the Civic's time had come) showed it was structurally sound and would be good for many many years to come.

I still don't see the groups in Omaha coughing up money to move an anchor tenant out of DT Omaha. I know some fast tracked UNO into their new arena but it has been a while since this idea was discussed and still no details.

Greg
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2010 :  12:20:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yeah. I expect the Civic to be used for a long time as well. As I mentioned a few posts ago, it is in the city's best interests to keep the building running for a marginal profit or even a moderate loss rather than either leaving it blighted and abandoned or tearing it down.

Obviously, the city doesn't want a building of that size to sit empty for too long. Huge liability issue and you'd end up having god knows what going on inside of it and god knows who living in there.

At the same time, the city simply doesn't have the money to tear it down. Even if they could sell the land to a developer, said developer would rightly expect the city to front the costs of removing the existing structures. With all we've heard about the city's finances lately, no way they have the coin to make that happen.
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buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2010 :  6:15:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nousefouraname


At the same time, the city simply doesn't have the money to tear it down. Even if they could sell the land to a developer, said developer would rightly expect the city to front the costs of removing the existing structures. With all we've heard about the city's finances lately, no way they have the coin to make that happen.



You mean like infrastructure costs??
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2010 :  6:16:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
pretty much.
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MetroFan
Freshman Mav

212 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2010 :  3:47:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has it been reported by the media that downtown stadium is a month or more behind and that the turf may not go in until after Winter? I havent seen any stadium info in a while for TD.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/06/2010 :  4:22:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hadn't heard that, but when I was there it looked like there was a ton of work to do. the people on the construction side I've talked to have said they are ahead of schedule, but that's just one part of it. don't know where the overall project is at.

I'm impressed with what I've seen from both parks though. the pictures on facebook of the sarpy ballpark looked really nice yesterday.
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West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2010 :  07:51:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MetroFan

Has it been reported by the media that downtown stadium is a month or more behind and that the turf may not go in until after Winter? I havent seen any stadium info in a while for TD.


It has not been reported, but I can confirm that they are nowhere near ready to put in the field as construction equipment is all over the place.

Putting in turf in the spring could be dicey. My understanding is that you can still lay sod in October.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
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Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2010 :  11:45:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anybody else here they are having problems with the high water table on that site?

Greg
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MetroFan
Freshman Mav

212 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2010 :  7:06:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, I have. You are right West O, you can lay sod in October, but it is not guaranteed that it will root very deep unless November is good. Either way they may have to install sod and pin it.
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AJMav
Minister of Anger

Iran
4503 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  12:02:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@Mike,

Yeah...but at least you don't have to drive to "BFE" to watch the grass grow next spring in your empty stadium. That's a plus right?

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West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  12:28:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who says it's going to be empty? Between the 300k-350k of the CWS, perhaps as many as 100k for the Nighthawks, and maybe 50k for Creighton baseball, the attendance at TD Ameritrade Park could possibly exceed the attendance for the Royals next season...especially if they get a concert or two downtown.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
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AJMav
Minister of Anger

Iran
4503 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  12:48:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
12 days of CWS
+
4 Nighthawk games
+
20 Creighton games (7 double headers when avg temp is 56)

= what? 3 weeks worth of events? Good thing the city isn't broke, taxing tires, closing pools and fighting with police unions. If not, the whole thing would look pretty silly.

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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  12:52:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
don't forget talking about taxing non-residents to help make up for some of their shortfall.

Won't all of the omaha residents out there soon be getting their CWS checks though? Oh, you don't?

I'm sure the residents will get to pay for it though.

AJ: you forget there probably will be a few concerts there too. That will add a few dates, but for the most part you're correct, it'll be empty far more than it's being used. Still might might make more money than the one in Sarpy though, so i guess it's alright. we'll see though.

I'll reiterate, I'm not against the Omaha ballpark, but the taxpayer will likely be footing more of the bill for it than the last 2 mayors would like you to think.
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Bigredmed
Senior Mav

1574 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2010 :  2:43:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nousefouraname

don't forget talking about taxing non-residents to help make up for some of their shortfall.

Won't all of the omaha residents out there soon be getting their CWS checks though? Oh, you don't?

I'm sure the residents will get to pay for it though.

AJ: you forget there probably will be a few concerts there too. That will add a few dates, but for the most part you're correct, it'll be empty far more than it's being used. Still might might make more money than the one in Sarpy though, so i guess it's alright. we'll see though.

I'll reiterate, I'm not against the Omaha ballpark, but the taxpayer will likely be footing more of the bill for it than the last 2 mayors would like you to think.



I want to see a law passed in Omaha that stipulates that for all public works projects that are not safety related (roads, water, sewer, etc) the only way the thing gets built is if the Mayor and the city council members voting for it put up their own assets to help build it (I mean every cent they own). If it is a good idea and will be a money maker, then they will get a cut of the profits. If it is going to be a huge white elephant that costs us zillions of dollars a year, then they lose everything BEFORE the rest of us do.
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