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AJMav
Minister of Anger

Iran
4503 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  5:51:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's also 90 years old and has all the comfort of a wooden plank in a dingy drab gray stadium.

Football and baseball is apples and oranges. Football stadiums are meant to be open that long...not baseball.

With all due respect councilor...that is a horrible argument. You if anybody should realize the gigantic lemon that is being sold here. I'm all for the stadium and have been for a long long long time. But the planning that has gone on for this...namely done since Roger and the gang has been involved..has been absolutely horrible.

That is not a point that can be argued.
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MavEconomist
Junior Mav

Tonga
585 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:06:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, you missed the point. It's an excellent point because the empty-most-of-the-year baseball stadium will have roughly the same (more, in fact) economic impact on the Omaha economy as the empty-most-of-the-year football stadium has on the Lincoln economy.

Yes, the planning has been crap. But what isn't when MECA is involved? However, that isn't the "excellent point". The only difference between a stadium that hosts both the NCAA and the Royals and one that hosts only the NCAA is how long it takes to pay it off in terms of economic value. According to a study done by my students, the former will pay off in less than a decade, the latter in more like 15-20 years. But it will pay off regardless where the Royals end up.

************************************************
res ipsa loquitur
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Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  7:30:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The football stadium in Lincoln is on campus. The new Omaha baseball stadium is taking up valuable real estate in DT Omaha. It was to be the anchor for the NoDo development. In it's present state it's failing to do that.

Greg
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Mojo325is
McQueen...

Brazil
1654 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  8:54:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This topic has gone from making sense to Husker-bashing.

Last figures I saw, each game day in Lincoln (and spring game) generate millions of dollars for the local economy.
The FB stadium also isn't supported with tax dollars, like this stadium will be.

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Trying to elude the Mickey Mouse Brigade
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twiztid1
Sophomore Mav

288 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2008 :  9:14:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Greg S

The football stadium in Lincoln is on campus. The new Omaha baseball stadium is taking up valuable real estate in DT Omaha. It was to be the anchor for the NoDo development. In it's present state it's failing to do that.

Greg



No, the new baseball stadium is replacing a parking lot that would have otherwise been there forever. That piece of real estate had no value besides parking revenue for MECA.
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Greg S
All-Star Mav

4101 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2008 :  10:37:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, I'll give you that. I was referring to a report that had looked at a baseball stadium to be the anchor of NoDo and to spur development. The owners of Slowdown and other land owners in the area had hoped the new home of the CWS would do that. The stadium that is going up now does not seem to be doing that.

Greg
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MavEconomist
Junior Mav

Tonga
585 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2008 :  11:47:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mojo325is

This topic has gone from making sense to Husker-bashing.

Last figures I saw, each game day in Lincoln (and spring game) generate millions of dollars for the local economy.
The FB stadium also isn't supported with tax dollars, like this stadium will be.

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Trying to elude the Mickey Mouse Brigade


My comments weren't meant to Husker-bash. I can do that anywhere. And anyway, it isn't relevant to this topic.

And whether tax dollars aren't used directly to support Memorial Stadium isn't entirely relevant to this discussion either. The point of my explanation is that spending the money on this stadium--regardless whether the Royals play there or not--is justified. What happens in Lincoln on football Saturdays only further helps to justify building the stadium, according to the CWS numbers Ernie Goss and my students have collected separately.

However, we would improve greatly the benefits from the stadium if MECA would stick with the original plans for NoDo development and if MECA would find a way to keep the Royals in it. But, again, we're just talking about how quickly positive benefits are realized and not whether positive benefits are realized. My students numbers did not include NoDo retail in the stadium in their estimates, and they found the stadium was justified no matter where the Royals play.

************************************************
res ipsa loquitur
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AJMav
Minister of Anger

Iran
4503 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  12:00:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mojo325is

This topic has gone from making sense to Husker-bashing.




Wahhhhhhh

I didn't make the original comparison either. As Greg mentioned, this is a bit different considering a 1920's era stadium is sitting in the middle of campus, while a baseball stadium was sold to help promote growth in NoDo.

Don't blame me the city was sold a bunch of magic beans

Regardless, the fact remains. That stadium..no matter what you think will NOT do squat for development downtown sitting empty 50 weeks a year. The Royals..when run properly, have brought in 400,000+ fans (which would surely increase with the new ballpark) that would spend money in hotels, retaurants etc.

How the hell is a new stadium sitting empty supposed to support that? Would you open a bar or restaurant down there on Cuming street (for example), knowing that your business better do damn good during June to make up for the other times of the yaer nobody goes down there?

Oh, unless you're counting that big Creighton vs. Peru State matchup. I'm sure downtown will be thumping when that all happens at 3pm on a Wednesday in early April.



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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  1:57:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's not like downtown has really been any sort of destination for retail over the last 30 years anyway. I don't see how anyone thinks that is going to change by putting retail in the no-do stadium area regardless of whether or not there is a baseball tenant.

Maybe a couple of bars/clubs would work there, but I see no reason for any real retail. It's been tried and failed downtown more times then anyone cares to talk about. Remember the Park Fair? It's a heated parking garage now. That didn't work out too well. I sure seem to see alot of open bays in the old market that have sat empty often for years if not decades. No one is clamoring to fill them up with retail, bars, or clubs. Even the retail that is in the old market is all niche stores like record stores, book stores, small clothing boutiques, and head shops. They do nothing to enhance the city at all. Drive down 10th street right now and take a look at how many prime spots sit empty right next to the Qwest. Why can't someone make a go of those spots?

In this time of store closings and company failures, why would we want to add more empty storefronts downtown? Why does anyone think that more downtown retail is somehow a good idea?
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MavRick
A Better Fan Than You

USA
-3935 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  2:37:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A few things:

AJ: I don't disagree that MECA has been pure evil on this, and its bizarre fetish for vast seas of empty surface parking is asphyxiating what could have been vibrant development in north downtown. I am absolutely disappointed in the vanilla detail and complete lack of integration represented by the stadium. I agree with you that far.

I disagree with your view of the Royals situation. As MavEconomist says, every reasonable model has Omaha making money on this deal in a very short period of time. Darth & Co. will undoubtedly be compensated to put other events in the ballpark, so I doubt it will actually sit empty 50 out of 52 weeks. I also disagree with what appears to be Greg's view that it's somehow immoral or a waste of money to build a building that's empty most of the time. I agree that it has implications for the neighborhood, and I fully concede HDR and MECA screwed the pooch. But the economics of the stadium are still very favorable.

nousefouraname: I can give you the long version of the 2300 factual and logical things wrong with your argument, but I'll skip it and give you the short version:

There is a word for cities that neglect to invest in commercial infill in their downtown areas. That word is "Detroit."



"This guy wouldn't know majesty if it came up and bit him in the face." Strong Bad, "Dragon"
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  2:56:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
would have preferred the 2300 factual and logical things wrong with my post. Until then, I'll assume that I am right. Perhaps I'll be able to come up with 75,000 things wrong with your rebuttal.
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AJMav
Minister of Anger

Iran
4503 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  2:58:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
(I laughed at the Detroit comment)

Agree...I don't think our views are that far apart. In terms of the Royals though, this town has been a great AAA baseball town for many years. (regardless of what the Royals and the PCL try and tell you) Unfortunately, a town the size of Omaha very soon will not have ANY minor league baseball...mainly because the proxy-out-of-town owners are too stupid and the evil charcoal-crusted heart having board that runs the new ballpark is too stuborn.

It's an absolute shame that a city the size of Omaha will have little or any professional baseball options to speak of anywhere within 140 miles. (And no, Lincoln does not count. TRUST me...I don't know much...but I think I have baseball down. That is not pro baseball). Lets face facts though..the entire thing was rushed, and the fact that MECA has complete control is the absolute death nail of this entire process. (I saw a History Channel special on the rise of the 3rd Reich last night, and I hate to say it..but there are plenty of MECA/Qwestapo similarities in their rise to power)

Regardless, the best interest of everyone is not being met here, due to the stuborness of two men: Roger Dixon and Alan Stein. Both of these clowns..if they had ANY semblance of civic pride..would sit down and try to hammer something out to be within the best interest of the city. But you and I know they won't...which will lead to an empty ballpark...filled from time to time with Creighton baseball games and the occasional flea market.

It's an absolute shame it's coming down to this.
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West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  3:05:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think there are two ways to view the financial impact of this stadium. By all accounts, the 25 year contract for the College World Series is enough justification for this stadium. The economic impact of those two weeks is more than sufficient to pay for this.

That being said, AJ is correct in saying that the stadium being empty from the 4th of July until the end of March is not going to help encourage other development around the stadium. In fact, it may just mean the traveling tent show that the NCAA hates on 10th Street is merely going to follow the series north. I think one of the reasons the NCAA wanted the stadium downtown is because of shopping, hotels, restaurants, and it would well serve MECA to deliver that experience.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  4:16:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is a word for cities that neglect to invest in commercial infill in their downtown areas. That word is "Detroit."

There are also plenty of cities that have tried to fill their downtowns with commercial infill and have seen it turn into a flaming disaster. I don't see too many differences between Omaha and St. Louis besides the fact that St. Louis hosts 3 professional sports teams. Both cities are primarily downtowns where people work, go to sporting events, and sometimes drink. They are not places where people live on large scales. They are not seen as shopping "destinations". St. Louis has tried 2 downtown malls (St. Louis Centre & Union Station) one has closed and the other is on its last legs.

For every city that prospers by adding downtown retail others see it turn into a total and abysmal failure. Omaha has not successfully had downtown retail in a generation. The only things proven to work in downtown omaha are bars and restaurants.
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AJMav
Minister of Anger

Iran
4503 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  4:20:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But downtown development has proven to work in Omaha with the Qwest. Regardless of being run by a manical madman, the downtown area HAS been developed for the better. Not completely or up to it's potential...but for the better. A Ballpark has WAY more ability to do so because of the 70+ baseball games....on covated weekend summer nights than an arena. That north downtown area is screaming for development, and something hip/fun/cool to keep younger professionals in town...and we're about to p*ss it away because Roger and Alan can't get along.

If the Mayor has ANY pride whatsoever, he'll try to get them back to the bargaining table before he leaves office. Then again, I'm guessing' he's checked out long ago...as soon as that 25 year ink was on the paper. Pretty pathetic attempt at a legacy if that place sits empty 50 weeks a year but again..that's just me.
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admin
U!N!O!

10827 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  4:23:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Retail can be successful downtown.

There is burgeoning upscale urban population in downtown. Westward renewal (linking up with some of the new midtown developments) will make downtown retail vital and successful.

Forward thinkers will reap the benefits.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  4:34:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look, I don't want to be negative about the potential of downtown development. I'd like to see it. I really would. Still, until some forward thinker actually gets it done and it proves to be a success, I'll continue to look back on Omaha's recent history and that of quite a few other cities who've tried downtown retail only to see it go the way of the dodo. Just because downtown development works doesn't mean that downtown retail will thrive. They are apples to oranges.

Qwest Center Omaha has been a success and has slowly started to push that success outwards into downtown. Still, I haven't seen anything to make me think that it has somehow revitalized downtown into a viable place to shop and spend money on anything other than food and beer.

I'm not an expert on this stuff by any means, but common sense makes me wonder why if downtown retail is such a slam dunk idea, why are there still so many empty bays in the old market? Shouldn't smart retailers have found a way to make more of a go of that? Why haven't the properties on 10th street been utilized? there are several buildings right next door to the Qwest Center that have been available for "office, retail, restaurant" that have sat on the market for years now. In fact, the first attempt at even a restaurant and bar in NO-DO, In Play, failed. As I said before, the last attempt at any major retail downtown, the parkfair mall which I'm barely old enough to remember, failed miserably.

I guess my worry is that either there is something still inherently wrong with making this stuff work in downtown or we don't have too many forward thinkers in omaha.
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West O Mike
All-Star Mav

Christmas Island
5308 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  4:52:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nousefouraname

Why haven't the properties on 10th street been utilized? there are several buildings right next door to the Qwest Center that have been available for "office, retail, restaurant" that have sat on the market for years now. In fact, the first attempt at even a restaurant and bar in NO-DO, In Play, failed.

Several bars have started up next to the Qwest Center; one at 9th & Dodge and then there is the Mattress Factory. InPlay failed on two levels: (1) they were too early, before the hotels opened up and (2) their "game area" was incredibly weak and wasn't worth the time to visit. InPlay would have failed everywhere.

Blog: http://huskermike.blogspot.com
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  4:58:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I have no doubt that a couple of well placed and well conceived bars would do wonderful around the new ballpark. So far, that's all the Qwest Center has really generated is a couple of bars in Farrells and the Matt. It's the retail that worries me.
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Mojo325is
McQueen...

Brazil
1654 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  5:58:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Apparently everyone has forgotten about Urban Outfitters, American Apparel, Slowdown and Film Streams.

There's also a new pizza restaurant that will likely go into 22 Floors when they open those apartments, so yes, retail is alive and well downtown.

Those that read my work in the weekly rag will know that I've blasted the city in the past for their ignorance towards the Royals and the pig-headedness towards the stadium. I think it's 50/50 that they leave, but like AJ said, it's baseball and it's entertainment.

It's also a shame that such a glorious piece of our city would sit empty as much as it would. I still think you'll see development downtown, but not at the clip you would if the park was down there.

'You' might not patronize the games, or like them, or hell, you might even hate baseball all together (but you still go to the CWS, right?) but the fact remains that they're good for the city and MECA needs to get their crap together and go sit back down at the table with Bill Shea.

PS: I love the hippie that thinks there are only head shops in the Market. You know, no hotels, upscale bars and lounges, luxury living spaces, art galleries, museums and not to mention some of the finest dining in the city...oh, and head shops.

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Trying to elude the Mickey Mouse Brigade
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  7:40:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hotels, upscale bars, lounges, luxury living spaces, art galleries, and museums have little to do with thriving retail. You named 3 niche stores that exist on an island of nothing that would be frequented by the art scene crowd no matter what else was around them. your points fail.
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MavEconomist
Junior Mav

Tonga
585 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  8:19:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry noname, Rick's "Detroit" point still stands. And actually, hotels, upscale bars, lounges, etc. all have MUCH to do with thriving retail. The fact that parking is so hard downtown even with both Creighton basketball and UNO hockey out of town/season says much more is going on there than you claim. The points stand.

************************************************
res ipsa loquitur
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MavEconomist
Junior Mav

Tonga
585 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  8:42:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Before we go on another journey, let me explain that hotels, bars, ... are related to thriving retail because hotels, bars, ... all bring people to an area and those people often come back to shop. The debate about how related hotels, bars, ... are to retail has played out in numerous places (e.g., Lawrence, KS, Aggieville in Manhattan, KS, Westport in KC, Detroit) and in all of these cases, the retailers in these areas want the activity in the hotels, bars, ... to expand because it influences directly their business. People stay in the hotels, go to the bars, etc. and when they do they see things in the windows of the retail shops. Having seen items in the shop windows, they often come back during shop hours to buy things. And it's not just the art scene crowd that behave this way.

************************************************
res ipsa loquitur
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Mojo325is
McQueen...

Brazil
1654 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  9:20:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nousefouraname

hotels, upscale bars, lounges, luxury living spaces, art galleries, and museums have little to do with thriving retail. You named 3 niche stores that exist on an island of nothing that would be frequented by the art scene crowd no matter what else was around them. your points fail.


So do you expect Bloomingdale's to open a flagship downtown or something?

You're the Eric Crouch of the message board; if you can't do it your way, you're going to take your ball and go home.

------------


Trying to elude the Mickey Mouse Brigade
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  9:50:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd like to see it work. I've said that over and over. I'd be the first to come back here and happily say that I was wrong if someone comes up with a visionary plan for worthwhile retail in that area.

Still, I feel that my points still stand. Other cities like St. Louis have tried retail and failed. Omaha has a 30 year legacy of mediocrity when it comes to downtown retail. I've listed several examples above and it's been totally ignored. At one point, people thought that revitalizing 16th street was a good idea. It was thought to be forward thinking and visionary. It failed.

Besides food and drink, what shops truly draw people to the old market? I honestly can't remember the last time I actually went to the old market to shop. It's probably been 10 years ago. There's a few novelty stores that feed off the bars and restaurants, but that's about it. Many other cities do their downtown markets much better than Omaha and that even includes Lawrence Kansas.

I do appreciate what the slowdown/film streams complex has done in that area. It has fulfilled a niche that was necessary and needed in the omaha art community. Still, it serves a segment that honestly gravitates east of 72nd street. Downtown retail catering to a ballpark is a whole nother ball of wax. It's something that has to appeal to a much broader piece of the population. It has to work for young and old, urban dwellers and suburbanites. I feel that it's easy to talk about, but much more difficult to do when you're talking about needing to keep a business thriving year around in an area that is not conducive to retail. There are few residents with any real cash living in the area.

We live in a time where brick and mortar stores are becoming unnecessary. Even in well populated areas, stores are having a hard time surviving and I just can't see a way for it to work up there so far away from everything. If anything, I see stores down there simply competing with midtown and aksarben and it's a fight they won't win.

Put in some bars/restaurants, but I think much more would be a tough sell.
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MavRick
A Better Fan Than You

USA
-3935 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  10:53:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't understand nouse's argument. It sounds like the following:

"I want retail, but I don't want restaurants or bars, unless it's an establishment that has at least 450 other locations. And I don't want any of that art, or the one-off clothing stores. No, sir. American Eagle for me, just like at Westroads. Or the places they play music other than what is heard on Star 104.5. So, subtract the fair-trade coffee houses, the offbeat music rooms, the literally world-renowned art collectives, the one-of-a-kind restaurants, the cool boutiques, and the art-house movie theaters, and what have you got downtown? Nothing, that's what."

Yes, the Parkfair mall was a failure. Most real estate developers will tell you you need to have rooftops - residential - before a mall-like experience will succeed. Parkfair gambled that equation could work backwards and it failed. There were, at the time Parkfair opened, far, far fewer downtown residential options than there are now. Even so, I wouldn't argue for 16th Street yet.

But if you want to see what a vibrant streetscape can look like, check out 24th between L and Q. South O is bustling with retail, and it's not because Roger Dixon has blanketed the area with striped asphalt, either. As for "open bays in the old market," other than the Prochaska building that was in construction-lien purgatory for three years, I don't have any idea what we're talking about.

If you want the homogenized, sanitized, Orange-Juliusized suburban mall experience, you can certainly have that, let's see, where...in the suburbs! But if you're not experiencing the art, funk, music, food and culture of downtown because there's not an Old Navy or a Dairy Queen, you're missing out, badly.



"This guy wouldn't know majesty if it came up and bit him in the face." Strong Bad, "Dragon"
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admin
U!N!O!

10827 Posts

Posted - 12/22/2008 :  11:18:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The ParkFair mall came at a time when Downtown Omaha was being abandoned (both by residents and by businesses).

That was an era when "urban living" didn't represent what it does today in terms of condos and row houses.

I'd like to see the stadium structured with shops and restaurants surrounding, but in our current economic situation, that might not be the best way to proceed with the stadium -- it might be more apropos to keep the stadium a homogenous development, and let surrounding developers worry about retail, dining, etc.

We'll just have to see how the overall development transpires. The ORoyals were given an insane deal to play at Rosenblatt (basically, they occupied the facility for free, kept the concession revenue, etc.) If past experience has shown anything, it is that MECA doesn't "play ball" that way.

As far as NoDo development goes, I think that will come in time (regardless of the pending baseball stadium). There are numerous developments in midtown and downtown. In a slow market, those developments are going to taper (a bit) until we return to a more robust market.

It doesn't take a lot to spur urban renewal.

I live near 50th and Center. The new Aksarben Village development is wonderful. The new Wohlner's Grocery is great! As that development (and the shopping center immediately south) have taken shape (with niche dining, etc.), we are starting to see other pieces of renewal -- Petrow's is remodeling the exterior of their fine restaurant (it doesn't get any better than the French Dip with a vanilla malt).

As the Midtown Crossing development forms, we'll see even more renewal -- in terms of more upscale urban residential and niche retail/dining.

Part of that renewal is going to involve things like art and culture -- to create the unique ambiance vital to urban spaces.

I hope that Darth Dixon and crew can find a way to bring people to the stadium during the summer (outside of the CWS). It has the potential to create a considerable amount of traffic for entrepreneurs in the area. I would like to see another baseball team in the facility, if possible (and it'd be nice if that team was the Royals). But the Royals organization said a couple of years ago that they wanted to occupy a much smaller facility that was more "family friendly."
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AJMav
Minister of Anger

Iran
4503 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2008 :  09:07:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And that Jon is the Royals ignorance vs. Darth's arrogance. The Royals are run by an out-of-town proxy owner who has no idea how fans in this town work. They will ALWAYS be 2nd fiddle to the CWS and they will ALWAYS be a sideshow, no matter what they do. In that particular case, it's best to salvage your public opinion STOP WHINING TO THE MEDIA and just ride the CWS coat-tails just as the Royals have for 30 years.

They simply want to charge 12 bucks for a prime ticket, but can't because there are obviously plenty of seats. Well what the idiots are not realizing is that they can make up the difference on concessions (which they get almost all $$ from) by getting an extra 5-8k people per night by promotions, groups etc.

I don't want to give Stein and the Royals a free pass AT ALL here. They are every bit the problem here...just as much as the MECA war machine. However, they do hold many of the cards here, and are within their right to get the best deal possible. That part I get.

What I don't get is Roger simply thinking they're going to put in a couple of flea markets a few times a year and ride Creighton's baseball season to prosparity. (Not to mention miss a golden opportunity to tax the hell out of businesses that would pop up around the stadium that wouldn't want to rely on 2 weeks out of the year for business.)

Not everybody can operate like Zestos

OH, and anybody who compares Omaha and Detroit's downtown situations...is with all due respect..a moron. Either that, or you really really have no idea what Detroit is really like.
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nousefouraname
All-Star Mav

2307 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2008 :  4:07:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess I'll agree to disagree with most of you regarding the shopping choices in the old market. Personally, I don't find any reason to "shop" there. The shopping is mostly touristy types of things that don't really draw too many locals down there anymore simply for shopping. I don't shop down there and I don't know of anyone else who goes to the old market for "shopping". If that's what you want in the ballpark area, to each their own, but I don't see it is anything that great. I find that shopping in historic downtowns/tourist areas is much better done in Denver, Boulder, Lawrence, etc. Comparitively, Omaha is pretty mediocre. That's just my opinion I guess, but I still don't see anything substantial working in the stadium area if it hasn't been done all that well in the old market.

I don't know why everyone thinks I'm bagging on the restaurants, bars, and museums in the old market. Still, there's a big difference between shopping and dining/drinking. As I've said, they are great. It's just the retail shopping that I find to be woeful in downtown omaha. Also, as I've said, I see anything major in no-do simply competing against the midtown development and that's not a good situation either.

I like this quote. It honestly is about where I stand on the whole situation...

"I'd like to see the stadium structured with shops and restaurants surrounding, but in our current economic situation, that might not be the best way to proceed with the stadium -- it might be more apropos to keep the stadium a homogenous development, and let surrounding developers worry about retail, dining, etc."
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buetane
All-Star Mav

Iceland
2568 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2008 :  09:31:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Typical mavpuck argument. I say this, you say that. What we're saying is kinda similar and we all see faults in everybody else's arguments except our own. We all want the same thing but we say it different ways and argue about it.
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